Hello, Everyone. I am debating whether to jump into the Canon 5D Mark III Raw video capture world, but as I have been researching the topic and equipment further I am now considering using Cineform as an editing codec in Final Cut 7. Up until now I have only work with ProRes, but I have read excellent things about Cineform, so I wanted to ask others what they feel about it as an editing codec. Does cineform work well in Final Cut 7? Does cineform require more computer performance in order to edit with? Or would a RAID setup be overkill? Is there a version of cineform you really prefer to edit in?
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Is there much visible difference between the various quality levels? Does cineform grading integrate well from cineform studio into Final Cut? These are some basic questions I have after having read about cineform a bit, so I would love to get some real world feedback on it from others. Please don't hesitate to add any additional observations you might have from your experience.
Every bit of information is useful to me. Thanks so much. I look forward to your responses. Why would you want to use Cineform when you already have ProRes with FCP 7?
People use Cineform on Windows because they don't have ProRes or on Macs because they need to inter work with Windows. There is no real difference between using ProRes & using Cineform as they ar both near lossless intermediate editing CODECs. Well, Nigel, I am considering Cineform for the first time because of the fact that it does offer the possibility of a raw, uncompressed editing codec, which is not possible through ProRes. After all, why go though all the money and hassle of shooting Canon Raw to then compress the file downwards anyway if, in fact, there is the ability not to.
By using Cineform in a raw format while editing, I could theoretically avoid having to make permanent color grading decisions until after the complete edit is done, thus allowing me greater flexibility creatively. Whereas if I use ProRes I would be forced to make decisions of color balance, highlight and shadow detail, etc. At the very beginning of the raw transcoding process, which would then be baked into the ProRes files, and therefore the film, for the rest of its life. I was just hoping to get a little more info from users here on the Cineform codec, in general, as I have never used it. How is it wot work with in FCP7? Is it as smooth as ProRes?
Does it have any drawbacks? What about editing in Cineform Raw?
Does it require more computing power for the uncompressed files? More resources? And if so, how much? Do people find Cineform Raw worth while, however? Or is it overkill? Too much storage space?
Too much hardware power to use effectively? Is Cineform 444 or 422 just as good? And a fraction the size? And if you are compressing to Cineform 444 or 422 should you just stay with ProRes at that point? Or is Cineform Raw one of the best ways to go if you're going to bother shooting Raw footage in the first place?
So, if anyone has any further insights to my questions I would greatly appreciate the information. Anything that will help me understand the full potential of shooting Canon Raw would be fantastic. Thanks so much. Well, Nigel, I am considering Cineform for the first time because of the fact that it does offer the possibility of a raw, uncompressed editing codec, which is not possible through ProRes. After all, why go though all the money and hassle of shooting Canon Raw to then compress the file downwards anyway if, in fact, there is the ability not to. By using Cineform in a raw format while editing, I could theoretically avoid having to make permanent color grading decisions until after the complete edit is done, thus allowing me greater flexibility creatively. Whereas if I use ProRes I would be forced to make decisions of color balance, highlight and shadow detail, etc.
At the very beginning of the raw transcoding process, which would then be baked into the ProRes files, and therefore the film, for the rest of its life. I was just hoping to get a little more info from users here on the Cineform codec, in general, as I have never used it. How is it wot work with in FCP7? Is it as smooth as ProRes? Does it have any drawbacks?
What about editing in Cineform Raw? Does it require more computing power for the uncompressed files?
More resources? And if so, how much? Do people find Cineform Raw worth while, however? Or is it overkill? Too much storage space? Too much hardware power to use effectively?
Is Cineform 444 or 422 just as good? And a fraction the size?
And if you are compressing to Cineform 444 or 422 should you just stay with ProRes at that point? Or is Cineform Raw one of the best ways to go if you're going to bother shooting Raw footage in the first place? So, if anyone has any further insights to my questions I would greatly appreciate the information. Anything that will help me understand the full potential of shooting Canon Raw would be fantastic. Thanks so much.
It works with FCP7 and edits smoother than ProRes depending on the settings you choose for raw. The only drawback is the compression, if you consider that a drawback. It requires much less computing power, it's an extremely resource efficient codec. Storage of raw is less storage than ProRes at a similar quality setting, because it's raw. 444 vs 422 depends on what you're trying to do with it.
That's like trying to choose between ProRes 4444 and ProRes 422 HQ. But I'd just stick to CF Raw as you can change the debayer settings and everything for even smoother editing, then change to better debayers when doing compositing and grading.
Even when not shooting raw it's great for upsampling 4:2:0 footage. It performs a chroma upsampling similar to 5DtoRGB.
It works with FCP7 and edits smoother than ProRes depending on the settings you choose for raw. The only drawback is the compression, if you consider that a drawback. It requires much less computing power, it's an extremely resource efficient codec. Storage of raw is less storage than ProRes at a similar quality setting, because it's raw. 444 vs 422 depends on what you're trying to do with it.
That's like trying to choose between ProRes 4444 and ProRes 422 HQ. But I'd just stick to CF Raw as you can change the debayer settings and everything for even smoother editing, then change to better debayers when doing compositing and grading. Even when not shooting raw it's great for upsampling 4:2:0 footage. It performs a chroma upsampling similar to 5DtoRGB. Thank you so much for your insightful response to my question.
I honestly thought I wouldn't get too much info almost two months after my original post. Based on your comments, Cineform Raw seems like a very useful editing codec for Raw shooting. I had basically given up on the idea of using it, but I will reconsider it now.
One major obstacle I had run into a couple of months ago came from GoPro themselves, when they told me that GoPro studio for Mac didn't have native support for raw transcoding. I will check in with them again now, but do you know if this support has been added for the mac platform? Thanks so much, again, for you insightful response.
I have many more question about working with cineform, but I will wait for now before posting any more. I was also researching this before and one issue you might come to light is that the debayer algorithm from the camera raw to CF is weak, giving a worse image quality than going from raw to DNG. At the end of the day, you might not have a better IQ than what you hve now using prores. And if you are thinking of converting raw to dng, then you will run into one of your fears, namely incredible $$$ on hardware and storage. Best if you try it out first by borrowing a 5d but u still have to spend 299 for the gopro premium. Becuase of this I have chosen the BMPCC instead.
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Back in 2010, I was shooting HD video on my Canon 5D mark ii and then realized I would have to convert the files captured on the 5D to an intermediate file format in order to edit them in editing software such as Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere. So I went ahead and purchased NeoScene, a product by CineForm, and converted the files to a CFHD codec. They are CineForm AVI files. Time has passed and I am now revisiting some material I shot years ago.
The files are CFHD AVI files and since installing CineForm, I moved on to a new computer. When I tried to install NeoScene on my new computer, it said something about deactivating the copy on the older laptop, which had died. I started researching what to do, but decided not to bother, since it seemed at that point, that Adobe Premiere Pro works fine with the native files taken on the Canon 5D without having to convert to an intermediate codec. Also, it looks like CineForm (which is now GoPro) has stopped supporting NeoScene among several other CineForm products. Which got me wondering if it would be safe to keep my video files encoded as CFHD.
Anyways — long-story-short — what to do with these CFHD AVI files? Should I keep them as-is, assuming that CFHD will be accessible and supported for the long-haul? Should I convert them to a more standard codec? And if so, which codec/format, and is there a lossless way of doing that? Looking forward to help on this. I'm using Windows 8.1 64-bit, editing on Premiere Pro CC.
Hi Adi, This is just an opinion based on my personal use.I'm using Vegas Pro 13. I render ProRes422HQ.mov and DNxHD220x.mov into CineForm YUV 422.avi intermediates. I use a couple script files to batch process the intermediates. These are the only formatted files which will preview at normal 29.970 speed at Best (half) preview quality on my old Duo2core box.
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If in the future I upgrade my hardware system and can then use the ProRes or Avid video files direct, I would see no reason to go back and render the older.avi intermediates to something else, unless at the time, I needed to use them and there was some demanding reason. But, I'm running on antiquated gear, stuck in the old world, which matches my age.
I am many years past the requirement to produce on a schedule and can now take my time! The younger generations and professional do not share that luxury and quite often need to keep pace with the trends. Hi George, I was just about to post the reply I got from GoPro (CineForm) regarding my question to their support team (similar to the question I posted here).
It seems my understanding that CineForm is slowly becoming extinct, was misinformed, or misunderstood. Here is the reply I received: SMPTE the society of motion picture and television engineers) has standardized the cineform codec as an industry standard. One of only 5 codecs that they have done this for. Additionally, Adobe includes CineForm as their house codec in their Creative Suite. They do so because it is cross-platform. You DO still need to have either NeoScene or GoPro App installed in order to use the codec outside of Adobe product though.
And yes, our 'sold' products are going away because we now include the Codec in our free products. GoPro App for Desktop includes the latest version of the GoPro CineForm codec and we are still making changes and updates to the codec. We are also still licensing the codec via our SDK (software development kit) to third parties for use in their products. In fact we have added a new page to the gopro.com website where companies can request access. So hope that eases your concerns about it 'going away'. Yes you can download NeoScene version 5 and activate it.
But my suggestion is that AFTER you do that, download and install the free GoPro App because that will ADD features to the GoPro CineForm codec on your computer. It will give you the ability to render into MOV format (with NeoScene you can only do AVI). It also gives you the ability to encode at 4:4:4 colorspace (NeoScene is only 4:2:2). I may have celebrated too soon: ( So I went ahead and attempted to use the CineForm AVI files in Adobe Premiere Pro, but I'm getting an error message when attempting to import the files. I figured it would work since it was stated that Adobe includes CineForm as their house codec in their Creative Suite.
Is there some setting I need to set, or possibly something esle I'm doing wrong? Here is a screenshot of the message appearing: I get the same message for all Cineform AVI files that I try to import. The conversion was done using NeoScene in Windows, in 2012. I'm working on a relatively new latpop, running Windows 8.1 64-bit. Using Adobe CC. Below is the media data of a sample file that I'm trying to import.
Hi Adi, You tried several files, so are you confident that eliminates the 'damaged file' part of the error message? The Mediainfo you posted isn't that much different than my CineForm files. In your OP you mention, ' edit them in editing software such as Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere.' Do you happen to have Vegas Pro (if so BTW which version)? I don't have Adobe Premiere. I'm sure you have already, or may post this problem in the Premiere forum. If you have Vegas Pro (or possibly the free Blackmagic Resolve), you could bring your old CineForm files into Vegas Pro (or Resolve).
If that worked, then you could render out again in CineForm and bring that into Premiere just as a test. Of course you have probably already sent the problem back to GoPro and let them chew on it, beings how they said it would work.
(BTW, you can't do this test using GoPro Studio as it will not recognize the.avi wrapper! GoPro Studio will load mp4, jpeg, and mov and render out to avi, but it will not load avi's.strange!!) I don't have Premiere and not familiar with it, hopefully another member here will be able to shed some light on the 'unsupported format' error message. Maybe Premiere expects the CineForm in a.mov wrapper and not avi (I doubt it), that would seem weird, I'm sure it supports both, but again, I'm not familiar with the Premiere NLE. Hi George — Yup. Tried more than one file, from more than one project. All are not being imported by Premiere Pro.
I'll try importing to Vegas later today. I have an old version of Vegas, I can try. I'll post back, but even if it works, I certainly don't want to start having to render all my CineForm files just to make them accessible in PP. That would be a nightmare. Not sure what the forum etiquette is regarding this, but I think I might be better off posting this question on the Premiere Pro section.
I just didn't think this would be a platform specific question when I first posted. I just didn't think this would be a platform specific question when I first posted. I wouldn't think so either, but, I just did a quick search and found this, 'Adobe Premiere Pro CC, Adobe After Effects CC, and Adobe Media Encoder CC can natively decode and encode QuickTime files using the GoPro CineForm codec on both Mac OS X and Windows systems.' , you can read it here: That seems to imply Premiere wants the CineForm in the.mov container!
If that is the case, and you need to use Premiere as your NLE, you may be able to use VLC to simply rewrap your CineForm.avi files to CineForm.mov files. Not much reason to test it in Vegas Pro, Vegas will only render CineForm to the avi wrapper, and not mov, so you wouldn't be any father ahead on a test using Vegas. You could of course use Vegas Pro as the NLE if your old files load. Not much reason to test it in Vegas Pro, Vegas will only render CineForm to the avi wrapper, and not mov, so you wouldn't be any father ahead on a test using Vegas. You could of course use Vegas Pro as the NLE if your old files load. I wrote this because in my system notes from last year I noted that I was unable to render CineForm to mov (unfortunately I didn't note the details why not). This morning during an unrelated render test, I easily rendered DNxHD220x.mov source media to intermediate CineFormYUV422.mov both with 8 bit pixel format and 32-bit floating point (video levels).
I have updated my CineForm codec twice since my notes last year and am currently on GoPro CineForm version 1.2.0. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it, but didn't want my previous statement to mislead any readers.